How a KickoffLabs Giveaway Boosted Haugen Racing by 14.5k Leads

Josh: All right. We are live in the On Growth Podcast. And today I'm talking with Matt Haugen and he's from Haugen Racing. I assume you are the owner, correct?

Matt: Yep.

Josh: Cool. People can't tell from the background, there is a couple of really cool pictures of cars behind Matt here today, he has a pretty cool business. So I'd love if you just start and tell us a bit about your business.

Matt: Yes. So Haugen Racing is obviously, my last name, it's a very creative name for the business. It's one of those things where it started as a side project. I won't drag on too long, but I was always focused on a business and then using that to fund my hobby rather than trying to make my hobby, my business. And so I went to ASU for my undergrad in entrepreneurship, and then I went to the University of Southern California and got my master's of science and entrepreneurship and innovation, and throughout that whole journey, I had probably like seven different startups. And it was always about... I got more and more addicted to drifting and cars as time went throughout, even at like three years old, I was obsessed with cars and into them and that obsession just grew. And so then like... By the time I was in grad school, it was like, all right. I had Haugen Racing and I was like, "I'm going to have this business and then I'm going to build a fund my racing and drifting with this other business that's outside of automotive." Long story short that last business failed, and I was living at home, I moved back home with my parents and I was like well... And it was right when COVID started and so I was like," Well what do we do now?" And I had Haugen racing going, I was doing the two businesses at the same time. And I decided-

Josh: Just to stop you there. So tell people what the business of Haugen Racing is.

Matt: Yeah. Sorry. I was getting there, my bad. Yeah. So Haugen Racing, it started out with really just my journey in racing and now what it really is, is I'm a professional drift driver. So if you've ever seen Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift, where they go sideways around the corners, we have competitions for that and there's actually a professional drifting series. Now the issue is it's not like NASCAR or Formula One where there's millions of dollars in it for the drivers, there's not much prize money at all. So if you want to be successful in drifting, you got to find some other sources of income. And so for me, mine is the YouTube channel as my main source besides sponsors. So we upload five videos a week, all around cars and drifting. So I'll do vlog type videos, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with, where I'm just showing behind the scenes; I build a lot of cars that we drift with, so we'll show the builds; and then I do a lot of reaction videos; as well as video games. So it's really the driving in real life, the YouTube channel, merchandise and other [inaudible]. So I got one of our T-shirts on right now, but we do T-shirts, stickers, successors for you and your car.





Josh: So when you said earlier, "I have these five other businesses" or seven businesses, you said you'd started?

Matt: I can't keep track.

Josh: You can't keep track. When you said earlier seven businesses and you're like, I'm going to get one of these going so I can fund my hobby. So Haugen Racing was your hobby, right?

Matt: Yeah. So I was diving in more into trying out racing just for fun, and then I got into drifting. And since 16 years old, I've been building cars for the SEMA Show, which is like a big, it's like the biggest convention for automotive for aftermarket and racing and also OEM stuff. But it was always, let's do... I had a golf invention, I'm not even really into that golf, but I was like, "let's try to build this up, and then I can use my profits to fund my racing." And then finally I just gave in and I was like, "All right, let's just make a business out of racing."

Josh: What was your golf invention?

Matt: So it's called [20-7], There's... Are you a golfer?

Josh: I've golfed a couple times a year, but I'm not a huge golf person.

Matt: It's a weird rule, that's probably why it didn't take off, and only like really competitive or strict golfers and professionals know it, but real 20-7 is... Basically, if your ball is in the way of someone else's when you're putting, you got to mark it and move it, if you don't put your ball right in the same exact spot as where it was, it's a two-stroke penalty. And so normally you'll never get... No one's ever going to call you on that in just fun games.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: You just got to get back in a similar spot, but in pro if they don't put it in that exact same spot, they get a two stroke penalty. So I had a golf ball marker that you could essentially flip and it had an arrow on it and it said move, and so then you would basically lay your club down next to the marker, take the marker put it on the other end of your club and flip it over. And still when you came back, you'd lay your club down and put the ball on the other end of the club. And it was in the exact same spot every time. So it was gimmicky, but it was... I don't know.

Josh: I could see why, I could see why because you needed a really specific audience. So it's hard to reach just that very specific audience of the competitive golfers. And they had to think it was better than the alternative, right?

Matt: Yeah. And no one's calling them on it really. And I was 20, when I was doing this from 19, I was just trying stuff and learning about business and entrepreneurship. So.

When I hit 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, I wanted to do something to further the growth, celebrate it, and then also try to give back to my subscribers.

Josh: What got you into wanting to do your own business? So it sounds like you went to school, you're like, "I'm going to be an entrepreneur." Some people fall into it over time, some people just know that, that's what they want to do, and you sound like the person who knew this is what you wanted to do.

Matt: I don't know exactly, a lot of stuff's environmental. So my dad was not necessarily an entrepreneur, but he had a successful, one successful small business, even medium size business. So when I grew up, I would visit him in the office and he was the boss, he was the leader, it was his business. And so that was the environmental thing, I think that I saw and... But even so that doesn't necessarily mean I would see my life going that way, but I remember where my dad would tell me, when I was just really little, I was like, "Someday, I'm going to have my own business dad." And I was like, "And you can be up front and when people come asking for Matt, you can be like, let me go see if he can talk to you, he's in the back." I just... I don't know, it was in my mind that I was going to do that. So.

Josh: Yeah. That's cool. All right. So let's keep going now to... Let's say you eventually found kickoff labs to run a contest, and so what was going on, what motivated you say, "Hey, I'm going to try running a contest." What was your motivation for going to do that?

I'd rather go this route, which is a little bit more risky, but try to build a solid email list off of this and also start intertwining all the networks.

Matt: So I've done some giveaways before, not in this way, on the side. One of my other failed startups was street wear and high fashion, and I've always just been into fashion forever, as long as I've been into cars. And so I've seen people do these shoe giveaways, which I'm sure you guys are very familiar with. For your listeners, it's the Yeezys and the different Adidas and Nikes and Jordans, when they come out. They'll do raffles, basically to be able to purchase the pairs because they're so limited, and then it also gets rid of robots, just buying them all. And so I've known about those and I've entered those a ton. And I know them, at least from the customer side, I know them really well, how they operate. You sign up with their email, you get a certain amount of entries, you follow their social media, you get a certain amount, you refer a friend, blah, blah, blah, and then you get entered to get a chance to buy the shoes. And so I've always been interested in other industries and like taking those things into whatever business I'm working on. And so I did a steering wheel giveaway a couple years ago and I just did it on social media. It was one of those ones where you like the post, share the post, follow, follow the steering wheel manufacturing to get entered, to win. So I've done a couple things like that. But when I hit a 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, I wanted to do something to further the growth, celebrate it, and then also try to give back to my subscribers. And so I was like, "I want to give away a drift sim, which is just a racing simulator for drifting." And a lot of people were like, "Well why don't you just do it?" I was asking people how they'd like it to be done because I'm always looking for customer feedback. I feel like that's the best way to make a decision is just let your customers tell you. And a lot of them are saying, "Well, why don't we... Every mech [inaudible] gets you an entry." And I was like, "No, I know that's done a lot, I see a lot of people do that," but there's a lot of kids out there that follow me and subscribe to the YouTube that... They don't even have access to a credit card or if they are old enough, they don't really have any money, they're living paycheck to paycheck. So they're not even going to spend a dollar to enter, most likely. The other thing I was like, "I remember the shoe giveaways." I was like, "look at all the emails they're capturing and the social media followers and the YouTube subscriptions, all that stuff," and so I was like, "I'd rather go this route, which is a little bit more risky, but try to build a solid email list off of this and also start intertwining all the networks. So the people that subscribe to me on YouTube, they probably haven't checked me out on Instagram yet." And so that's how I went down this road. And...

Josh: So kind of see your audience going in, that's impressive to get to a 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. So at the time you hit that, how large was your email list at that point?

Matt: 6000.

Josh: About 6000?

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: But it doesn't sound like you'd done too terribly much to promote the email list other than what was going on, on the store.

Matt: No, it's just like I do when you... The first time you go to my website or whenever you like delete your cookies, it'll pop back up.

Josh: Yep.

Matt: And it'll say, sign up for our email list and get 10% off your first order. Just simple stuff like that to build it.

Josh: So I'm curious because I know somebody will ask the question, how do you feel you got to a 100,000 to people on YouTube? How did you grow that list?

Matt: Science.

Josh: Science?

I started paying attention to what is working and try to do it better.

Matt: Seriously. I said that jokingly, but honestly it's... I started out doing what I wanted to do on YouTube, that didn't work and I don't think it does really work. And then I started paying attention to what is working and try to do it better. Well I think I'd do it better.

Josh: Yeah. So can you go into a little bit more detail there? What was working and how do you think you did it better?





Matt: So you look at... I wanted to first just do behind the scenes videos of events and stuff, and that does work for some people but I started noticing, for example, I saw someone do some, how to drift videos, they were teaching people how to drift. And the production wasn't that great, it was from a professional driver, a better driver than I was at that point, for sure. But that was all he had, he was a great professional driver, but the video was crap, the title wasn't good, the thumbnail wasn't good, there was no SEO, the description was terrible, all that stuff. And so I was like, I can do all this stuff better because I've researched and I've looked at the guys that are making videos work, and I'm looking at the SEO that they're using, the way they're titling and thumb knowing videos." And so then I put all that stuff onto a well produced how to drift video, and it worked. That was our first bigger video, that's not like viral, but it was half a million views or something. And so I just continually do that and I keep spreading out. So I went how to drifts, then I did video games, then I did sim drifting, these are all different sectors that people build entire YouTube channels off of, but I'm trying to do like four or five of them basically.

Josh: [crosstalk] [inaudible] your videos, you'd say are probable like the hundred level videos. So you might have somebody who does really super in depth in some of these things, but you're like, "Let's hit the 80% case of how do you drift," answering these basic questions, right?

Matt: When it's things like... I look at the analytics, I look at them more than I should on YouTube, but there's so much you can learn from them. YouTube's are honestly awesome, way better in my opinion, than Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. I think you can learn a lot more from YouTube's, but you look at a couple things, you look at your click through rate and your watch time. Click through rate tells you, they showed someone the video, you got their impression, did they click it and watch it, right? If your click through rates there's averages and if your click through rate low, it's very simple, either your thumbnail or title or both sucked. And so then if it didn't work, try a different title with the same style of thumbnail, try the same title but a different thumbnail. And as you do that, you start learning what-

Josh: Are you re-uploading the videos in each of these cases or are you just modifying the properties of the videos and just trying to-

Matt: I'll often make a new version of that video, you never want to delete a video and re-upload it. So it's like,, I made How To Drift A Car In 10 Minutes and let's Say I Made How To Drift A Car In 10 Minutes, it didn't work. I'm going to do How To Drift A Car In Five Minutes with a different thumbnail. It's basically the same video but we re-filmed everything, it's a completely new video, but the same concept just with a slightly different adjustments.

it's paying attention to what people are watching and what they're asking for and what they like.

Josh: So you're leaving the other content up there, but you're just constantly refining and saying like, "let's just work until we optimize that click through rate and watch time of the video."

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: As you said, science.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: No, that's a perfect explanation. So you would just do this over and over again for different like categories of videos that you'd find that seemed like there was an opportunity.

it's amazing, the bigger you get and the more comments you get, the more data you're getting, and so it just gets better and better.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. And then again, it's paying attention to what people are watching and what they're asking for and what they like, I read every single one of my comments and I'm always asking, I'm like, "What did you guys like about this video? What didn't you like? What could we do better?" And I get feedback on it. And it's amazing, the bigger you get and the more comments you get, the more data you're getting. And so it just gets better and better. Now I'll even ask, I'll say, "Hey, what should I react to next? And I'll get 30 or 40 comments saying this, this, this, and this. And so then if I see five comments saying the same thing, maybe that's worth making a video on. and it seems to work. I wanted to make it sound really smart by saying science. It's not that complicated, but it's just paying attention, I think.

Josh: No, it's paying attention to what works and what people react to, we did the same thing with Kickoff Labs. When we started, we just started paying attention to what customers were using the tool for, and talking to them and being like, "Oh, nobody's using these two things, we probably don't even need them, but everybody's using these four features, so let's totally go deeper on those features." And following a customer, especially following passionate and paying customers has never really steered us wrong.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: So-

Matt: Now it's [inaudible] only have a few, right? That's the tricky part I think, when you only have a couple, but the more mass you get, I think it starts to...

Josh: Yeah, no, you absolutely right. It's really hard in the beginning. So in the beginning, I'd say we did a lot more qualitative interviews. We just like, anybody who used the product, I want to actually talk about them and make the decision for myself, is this the person we want to follow or not the person we want to follow?

Matt: Yeah.





Josh: Before we had enough data to say, people going through the system. Anyway, so let's go back to... Now are at the point you've got 6K email subscribers, a 100K people on YouTube.

Josh: So you've got this really cool drifting sim and you've seen these other contests and you want to do something similar. How did you find Kickoff Labs?

I liked your guys'(KickoffLabs) the UI and then also the testimonials you had and then the features as well.

Matt: Google.

Josh: Google? Just for my own use? What were you Googling for?

Matt: I don't want to tell you the wrong things because I know it's important. I believe I tried looking, but everybody hides it pretty well, but I tried looking at some of the shoe contests and stuff, and see who they were using. And then I started looking up viral giveaways, referral giveaways.

Matt: I think I just searched shoe gives as well, give away websites or what was the other term I used? I should take a screenshot that would've been valuable for you, but...

Josh: That's fine.

Your team was amazing on trying to make it work with my Squarespace store. We were back and forth for a couple weeks. So that was good, I'll definitely recommend you guys over and over again, just because of that.

Matt: And then I got a couple that I was like, these guys look legit, they have good testimonials and big businesses that work with them. And then I sorted it by features and I believe... I can't remember exactly what feature it was, but you guys were the only ones that really had it and maybe at a decent price, there might have been one other person, but they're really expensive. But I just sorted through that. I liked your guys' the UI and then also the testimonials you had and then the features as well. I will say I was bummed that, you can cut this out if want, but I was bummed that there wasn't integration with Squarespace and Shopify only, but your team was amazing on trying to make it work with my Squarespace store. We were back and forth for a couple weeks. So that was good, I'll definitely recommend you guys over and over again, just because of that. It's like I was trying to force something that you guys didn't have set up yet, but you guys did your best to make it work.





Josh: No, It was one of the reasons I was interested talking to you because I was going through some of the threads, and support with people that we're going to interview, and we are absolutely investing in more integrations with store platforms, and so that's one of our big pushes for this year is, how can we integrate easy... And even make it simpler even with Shopify at the store, which is just one click and you get the contest running on your site.

Basically the way I did it is, I wanted to start out where it was completely free and it stayed free forever.

Matt: Yeah. Because that was huge for me, because I wanted to... Basically the way I did it is, I wanted to start out where it was completely free and it stayed free forever, but the only option was free options. So it was email, subscribe to YouTube, like on Facebook, you could view... I think you could only view a post on Instagram and TikTok, correct me if I'm wrong. You can't actually... They don't allow you to... You don't have the integration to see they followed and get the result,

Josh: Yeah.

They [customer] just went to town on getting referrals, and they had 700 entries from referrals, and he had a small YouTube channel and was putting it in all his videos, all over his social media.

Matt: But it's you can just put whatever you want for the text. So I put follow I'm sure there's some people that are smart enough to just click the link. But I also captured some other people that went and actually followed. So and they unfollow some later on, but it worked. And once I was a week or two in, I had maybe, I don't know. I don't remember how many, a lot of entries, half or something of my overall then I was like, "I want to introduce buying merch for extra entries." And so a lot of people did take advantage of that, but the coolest thing is, the highest entered person didn't win, but the highest entered person never bought any merch. They just went to town on getting referrals, and they had 700 entries from referrals, and he had a small YouTube channel and was putting it in all his videos, all over his social media. So I think doing it that way, with the referral thing and the buying rich can make it fair. If you want to put the work in, you can still get a butt load of entries or you can buy your way.





Josh: Yeah. No, absolutely. That's definitely part of our vision for keeping people engaged. And that's a fairly common thing that people tell us is, "Hey, you found out this person had most of the referrals." And in some cases people tell us, we didn't even know the person had this niche, YouTube channel about this thing. Did you know that person beforehand?

Matt: Nope.

Josh: No. All right.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: Did you reach out to him or do anything for him after the contest since he was plastering it all over?

Matt: Yeah, I did. I was like, I had COVID and then everyone was bugging me because I said it was ending and I was like, "Guys, I'm trying." I was like, "all right, we're going to do the giveaway." So I did it live on Instagram and then the guy that had the butt load of referrals, he hit me up right away and was like, "Dude, I'm bummed I promoted it so much." And I was like, "All right. I'll give you a consolation prize." So I gave him the same as third place.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: So.

Josh: Yeah, totally. It's worth having a relationship with those people. Right? Because now if you do something else in the future, he could do something similar for you.

Matt: Yeah.

Josh: Cool. So when I looked at the... I was going through the contests and you had... It was pretty simple, it looks like you just took one of our templates and just modified it with your images. So you've got the basically, and I'll post the images so people can see with the post in this and the show notes, but you've got you feature in the top of the page the big giveaway, the drift sim, and then you've got the countdown, and then you've got just a really simple first name, email address to enter, their current number of entries. And it looks like you did, as you said, purchase merch, get friends to sign up for extra points, Subscribe on YouTube, follow on Instagram, follow TikTok, like us on Facebook. And you were just tracking people, tracking people that way. And at the end results, if you don't mind me, do you mind me sharing your numbers here?

Matt: No, of course not.





Josh: Well it looks like you captured about 14 and a half thousand leads captured in the contest. How many of those were email addresses you think you didn't have previously in your email list?

Matt: Like most of them, I don't think... There wasn't a lot of crossover because my email list is now and I'm probably messing up the numbers a little bit, but I think my email list is now 22,000.

Josh: Yeah.

23,370 [email] contacts and going in, it was 6,000 or 7,000.

Matt: So there wasn't a lot of crossover... I use MailChimps, so...

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: Make sure it's not doubling up on emails and stuff. Yeah. Well, some of them subscribed and shit like that, but 23,370 contacts and going in, it was 6 or 7000.

Josh: Yep.

Matt: So.

A lot of people finally committed to subscribing or realize they hadn't been subscribed. So that was where a lot of the growth was.

Josh: Did you notice an increase in followers on the social channels as well, since you were primarily doing that outside of the purchases?

Matt: Yeah. There was a jump in... There's a big jump in YouTube subscribers, I think a lot of the people that enter the giveaway and were watching the videos. Watch time from viewers is always really low, you're getting a lot more... It's like any social media, they're not all subscribed, right? But a lot of people finally committed to subscribing or realize they hadn't been subscribe. So that was where a lot of the growth was. Yeah. Instagram was okay, and TikTok got a little bit, Facebook got a decent jump actually, now that I think about it. But I think the YouTube was cool because it made people realize, "Oh I'm not subscribed, and I watched this guy's videos you so."

Josh: So what other things did you do personally to promote the contest?





Matt: I just posted it on social media and YouTube. I didn't do any paid advertising or marketing.

Josh: How long did you run it for?

Matt: A month.

Josh: A month? And then for the YouTube, you said you do five videos a week when you're mentioning it during those videos that were being posted that in those four weeks?

Matt: Yeah. Pretty much every one of them, especially heavier on the videos relevant, like really relevant to the sim giveaway, like the sim drifting videos I was doing two of those a week. And so the little shout out was a little bit longer. And then in the reaction videos and other types, I would just make sure I quick did it at the start like, "Guys, don't forget, we just hit a 100K subs on YouTube, we're giving away a drift sim you, details around the description." Something real quick. And then yeah, just posting it on social media, some but... Mainly just YouTube and that just keeps getting referred like crazy. Everybody just passing around because no one... I don't know of anyone that's given away a full drift sim. Maybe it's been done, I'm not saying I'm the first, but I've never heard of it. And so I think my viewers hadn't heard of it, and so they were all excited about it and everybody was sharing it around and saying... I don't think I could do this again with this much success, maybe, but it's pretty special being the first one.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: We'll probably try it, again though.

Josh: That was one of my questions. Like would you try a contest giveaway like that again? That was my next-

Matt: Yeah. I want to do another one at 200 K. I'd like to give away maybe two drift Sims, I just don't think it'll be as successful. I don't know, we can see.

I think being able to do something really unique like that, and it's the first, it's hard to replicate.

Josh: You'll have double the seat audience at least so.

Matt: True. Yeah. No, it'll be interesting to see. I know when I did the steering wheel giveaway on Instagram, it went insane, I gained so many freaking followers on Instagram. And then I saw a bunch of other people try to copy doing it. It did not work even close to the same, no one was able to replicate it. I, and [crosstalk] my small little niche, but I'm just saying. So I could be wrong but I think being able to do something really unique like that, and it's the first, it's hard to replicate. Now I could do something bigger. Right? Give away car, which I want to do in the future too.

Josh: Yeah. Who do you look for online for inspiration, for your ideas, your marketing ideas, education, are there other people you follow that you're huge fans of or where do you get your inspiration from?

Matt: I've never been asked that question. Honestly. I'll be honest. A lot was from my education. I got a lot from ASU and especially USC, that was a really intensive... The whole program was to have students come in that want to get their masters and launch their own business or if they already had a pre-existing business really make it serious, and so I learned so much in that. Now it's just from... I just pay attention as a customer, but I'm always looking at it and trying to analyze it from the business' perspective. So just anything, any social media, YouTube videos, I'm always feel like I'm enjoying taking in content, but I'm also studying it, I think subconsciously. But there's no... I don't have a guru or a book or a guy I follow or anything like that. Just watch everything. And I guess one of the big things I learned in undergrad was the... I can't remember the exact term, not blue sea, but it's like a business term, but it's essentially taking something from one industry that works and just putting it in another industry. I feel like a lot of people have been in one industry for so long and they only do it the way everyone else is doing it in the industry. And so I always like looking... I'm interested in a lot of different stuff, and so I'm like, "why wouldn't that thing in fashion work within cars or that thing in health products work within YouTube, whatever it is." So I feel like for me that's... I don't know.

Josh: Yeah. No mixing and matching is huge, it is not even just within the industry, but like, "Oh, something works really well on Instagram, has anybody tried it on TikTok in this space yet? And nobody has then it's probably worth trying because an audience is an audience, people react, just because they're on one network versus another doesn't mean they react differently necessarily.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Josh: Cool. How many cars do you own? I'm curious.

Matt: I think eight.

Josh: Okay, What's your favorite car?

Matt: Oh, I don't know either Lambo that one or my R 34, which is not behind me, but yeah, it's a Nissan skyline, R 34. If you watch fast and fierce, it's the car Paul Walker drove, not the orange super, but the silver car with the blue stripes and the round taillights, it's a pretty iconic tuner car and that's a dream car of mine.

…The biggest thing is paying attention to your customers and going out and talking to them before you just make decisions on your own.

Josh: That's really cool. What advice would you have to anybody else who's got a passion like a store, similar to what you've got going on and they're trying to build their audience? What advice, things we haven't talked about, would you give them, could be contest related or not contest related, just in general when it comes to growing their audience?

Matt: I'm going to go basic, but I don't feel like a lot of people learn about this and we talked out at some... But customer discovery is the actual term, I think it's gotten a little bit more mainstream, but it was really a startup term in like the Palo Alto and Los Angeles, like startup scenes and venture capital. Anyone that's in that scene knows the term customer discovery. But it's really about getting out of your own head and not saying... Let's say me and you are starting a business. And we're like, "Oh, our customers are going to love this, they're going to love it at this price, this color, and this is for sure our customer," but we haven't gotten out and actually talked to anybody. I think the biggest thing is... And sometimes it's hard to figure out how to do that, but the biggest thing is paying attention to your customers and going out and talking to them before you just make decisions on your own. And so anything you can do to gather feedback and info is important. Another thing I would say is make sure you're not baiting them into giving you the answer you want to hear, that's a big one. So careful how you word your questions and stuff. But like I honestly think people who can do customer discovery well can go really far. Because I think that's one of the biggest things in business personally.

Josh: I personally, I just love talking to... I love this business because I love talking to all the different customers because we have customers in so many different industries. And so for me it's just entertaining to talk to folks like you as like, Oh I never really thought about there's people who are just like their career is drifting and they've turned that hobby into a business. And so that's just fun to see all over the different space.

Make sure you're not baiting them into giving you the answer you want to hear, that's a big one. So careful how you word your questions and stuff. But like I honestly think people who can do customer discovery well can go really far.

Matt: I bet that's fun. I'm like, as you said that I like got chills, I was like, "Man, you get to talk to a lot of interesting people and learn about interesting businesses." It's cool.

Josh: Yeah. It's funny, one of the things that's definitely taught me is like there's not necessarily bad business ideas ever because there's lots of people I talk to like, "I have no idea how you turn that into a business, but kudos to you. It worked because I never would've thought it would work." But there's bad fit sometimes of the people who like, "Maybe you're not the right person for that business." And so it's always the best is when you find that person who's a good fit for the business and they've got a cool business.

Matt: That was one of the biggest things in grad school that they kept talking about. Because I was always the entrepreneur type who's like, "Oh I got to have this one in a billion idea and then it'll take off." And a lot of people... I feel like even successful entrepreneurs, some of them and business people, they still think that way. And in school we had a venture capitalists coming in and all our professors were successful entrepreneurs themselves, like big. And they were like, "the idea doesn't fucken matter. They're like, "it's the team." They're like, "get over this idea thing, someone else has thought of it." Someone would come this idea and be like, "Oh I was the first person." Nope, I've heard of that one before. There's like three other people in Palo Alto working on it right now and they're like, "it's the team" and so I was like, that helped me a lot because I was like... You think about how many people are in the world, someone else has thought of this idea. So once you can let that go, then it's like, "All right, how do we do it the best? How do we have a good team?" All that stuff.

Josh: Exactly. Yeah. Hundred percent.

Matt: That was a big one for me though because I was always that guy, I was like, "I need that." I have an ideal list that hundreds of ideas and I'm like, "This has never been thought of before."

Josh: I own a lot of different domains and a lot of different things, so I'm just like, "Well, this one pays the bills though." It's really fun and this still fun to pay the bills, but I'd be like, "I've still got like all the domains, I've got domains for tons of different ideas." I'm like, "It's a great idea, let me start by buying the domain and then doing nothing else."

Matt: That's so funny. I got a couple of those too. I got a good one, I'm waiting for somebody to come buy it from me, it's how to drift.com. I bought that one because the search term is so sick, but I don't know. Yeah, just funny. I built the website out like just for myself and I might do something with it eventually, but you got to stay focused. I think that's another big one is... And now you got me talking, but so many people... And I feel like it's toxic, but there's this whole thing right now of having multiple businesses and side hustles and stuff. And I'm like, "Man, I'm still a big believer in get one, focus on it, get it sustainable and then do the next one." Stop trying to do six different things.

Josh: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Anyways, you're fun to talk.

Josh: Have a great weekend, man.

Matt: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for writing me up. We'll do another one soon.

Josh: Yep. We'll do right. Thanks.

Matt: See you.